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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:59 am 
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Darryl, you had mentioned a problem with understanding Sid/Star charts. Is there a particular chart that's giving you grief? Which one and what are your questions?



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:01 pm 
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Hey Keith,

Ummm...Nope don't think it was me. However, I have had some problems with reading charts in the past. Since then I've found one or two articles online which have helped simplify things.

Problem with the charts in general is that there is so much information on it that it's hard to know what all the numbers / symbols are for :D I think I understand most of them now though.

Thanks!



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:02 pm 
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Yes, it was you, in the thread with "Training needed"! You must be getting old to forget so quickly!

Glad you figured it out. If you run into any more problems, let us know.



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:50 am 
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LOL :D

I did put that...didn't I? :D I guess I was expecting the reply under that forum and just completely forgot hehe!

I did manage to figure out the charts for the most part. I seem to have some troubles understanding some of the items though on the charts....for example...

1) What's the purpose of the DME arc and how is it used? - i.e. on the Timmins (CYTS) ILS / NDB RWY03 plate?

2) Having problems trying to figure out how to properly maintain the glide path at 3 degrees or thereabouts...on that same plat it looks like it's saying a 31 degree angle down to the runway?


I'm sure I have a multitude of other questions somewhere that will come out later but these are a couple to get started. I think that for the most part the newer pilots (including myself) need some guidance from the guys who know this stuff cold. We need someone to give a good tutorial / example of each type of chart (RNAV, LOC/BC, ILS / etc).

I'm hoping that the new website and training materials might include these items. A lot of us would like to get as close to real world as we can and this would really help those that want it! My long term plan is to get my PPL but at this rate I got a long way to go :D

Thanks!



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:24 am 
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The DME arc is primarily used to confuse the living #### outta pilots.

The 3 degree glideslope is for normal pilots, such as you or me. The 31 degree glideslope is for pilots like Keith, hence the need for replacement LDS gear and paving equipment wherever he may wander.

For me, the easiest way to get the hang of the glideslope was to use the VASI lighting, almost exclusively. I found that if I tried to nail a specific angle of descent using the instrument, I tended to "overthink" the approach, and wind up chasing the blasted glideslope into the ground or halfway down the runway. Just try using the VASI, pitch and power...see how you make out...

Cheers!



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:27 am 
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Ah, gee, helpful as ever, 'ole Dave is.... And a controller too... tsk, tsk.

Although he is right about using the lights to help guide you down. (The Red and white ones, to the left of the runway).

Pull out that Chart and let's see if I can help you there.

Let's say you're flying into Timmins. It's a very dark and stormy night. You know what runway your shooting for (03), and you know the ILS frequency (109.70).

What you don't know, and can't see (Dark and stormy, remember?), is your exact position around the field. So how can you set up the approach? You want to intercept the inbound track and get on the glideslope, but where is it?

What you need, is an initial fix. This is the point where "final approach" starts. Once at the IF, you should be configured for landing and intercepting the ILS for a straight in run at the airport. At most airports, these fixes are NDB's or Intersections, which can be programmed into a GPS, FMS or manually calculated (you can USUALLY find an intersection by shooting VOR radials...) You also don't want to be flying around in the dark looking for this magic fix, possibly bumping into other aircraft who are doing the very same thing.

Look at the chart. You'll see towards the bottom of the "top down" map the notation "IF 10 DME" This is your Initial Fix. Also note the two small lines going straight off the bottom of this chart. The Western one is marked LR-220 and the Eastern one is marked LR-200.

Here's the way I fly approaches like this.

Tune NAV1 to the ILS frequency and inbound track.
Tune NAV2 to Timmins VOR (113.0) Hopefully your aircraft will have an RMI pointer for NAV2 that also gives you DME readings.
Tune the ADF to TANGO (263)
Assume I'm approaching the airport from the East.

I fly to YTS with the NAV2 RMI needle pointed straight up (We'll get into wind corrections later) and watch the DME reading. As it counts down to around 15 or 18 miles, begin a left turn to intercept the 12 DME arc. What I want to see, is the RMI needle pointing directly to the right (the station is off my right wingtip) and the DME reading at 12. Fly the arc by watching the DME. If it starts to count upwards (I'm drifting left, moving away from Timmins) I correct to the right and Vise-Versa. As long as you keep the needle pointed directly to the right (which keeps the station off your right wing) and the DME reading at 12, you can fly a 12 mile-wide circle around Timmins until you run out of fuel!

I also keep an eye on the BOTTOM of the RMI needle. The compass rose around the outside of the RMI will be turning as you fly the "Arc". Sooner or later, 200 degrees will be at the bottom of the needle. Remember the LR-200 we saw earlier? This is called the "Leading Radial" and is the Timmins 200 degree radial in this case. When the bottom of the RMI needle is pointing at 200, start the turn to intercept the LOC. (Right turn to 001 degrees).

If I've done it all right, I should hit the Localizer and be very close to the Glide slope bang on 10 miles out from Timmins. When my ADF needle swings 180 degrees, I know I'm over Tango beacon and 4 miles from touchdown.

Easy as pie.

Now, for your second question about the 31 degree glide slope. What you're looking at is the INBOUND course for runway 03. Just above it is 211, which is the reciprical (outbound) course for 03 approach. If you look just above that, you'll see a small "GP 3.0" which means "Glide Path 3 degrees"...

Hope that helps. If I've missed anything I'm sure someone will let me know...

Now on to a full procedure approach..... Ah, another day. It's late and I'm going to bed!




Edited By Keith CVA51 on 1120037361



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:49 am 
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Ok, Mr. Henry I will correct one thing... :p

[quote]and the DME reading at 12, you can fly a 12 mile-wide circle around Timmins until you run out of fuel!

This is the radiaus of the circle, not the width, it is 24 miles....LMAO

Somethings I am anal about just like DS.



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:42 am 
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I might have thought that "thank you Mr Henry" might have been a more appropriate reply.

Anal possibly. Just like DS - not a chance!

Cheers Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:04 pm 
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Hey Bill, I'm just pulling his chain and the help wasn't for me as I am beond that. apparently Mr. DS is about spelling, and I am about math :p



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:30 pm 
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My mistake James, the help was not for you and therefore my post was out of line.

Cheers Bill
"eating humble pie"


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:37 pm 
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LMAO.....Man I sure get some great laughs out of this place......Don't think Devon does though...



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:57 pm 
katron wrote:
This is the radiaus of the circle, not the width, it is 24 miles....LMAO

Somethings I am anal about just like DS.

... but apparently not English.

Cheers!

Gary


  
 
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:42 pm 
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LOL........Well Mr. G I can not spell worth the crap, and I accept that, but math and physics is a different story....



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:06 pm 
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Hey Keith,

Thanks for the reply and that does help clear up a few things :D

I'll try some of that info out over the next few days and see how I make out. Probably best to simulate a blind fly in to CYTS and try this. Get the fire crew ready....I'm comin in!

:D



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:55 pm 
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Hey, James... You're talking to a guy who needs a calculator to figure out my age, man. (2005-1972=Old enough to know better....)

P.S. Piss off all of ya! :D

Darryl - You're welcome. And I don't know if I'd try it blind the first time... Without a doubt you'll digging holes in the runway and that's MY job, Mister!




Edited By Keith CVA51 on 1120060725



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