Add-on class 4 aircraft

CVA0014 · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:06 pm

So now that I can land and take-off without any assist I decide to take the 767 from Dulles to Tampa. I have everything under control, pretty much alone up there on vatsim and then I realize there's no GPS.

So I estimated a heading, set AP for FL330 and 200something knots and started flipping through the manual. I still haven't figured enough of the FMC, I'll probably look for a Youtube tutorial, but I did get the airports to show up in the lower display to home in on Tampa. I was checking on the CVA livemap to make sure I was going where I thought I was going.

It only took me 3 passes to come in properly, and even then it felt to go much faster than I wanted. Those multi flights in the Dash-6 might have messed with my timing.

Rob Vanderkam · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:47 pm

They have their own video and publication tutorials.

The runways, and a 2 mi line vectored from each end of the runway, will show up on your EHSI if you can get close enough (or is that when you have the FMC programmed for it...?).

Yeah, you'd better run through the tutorials.

CVA0014 · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:29 pm

I figured out basic cold engine start, wow that's so cool.

I still need to get further in the FMC. I was going through the manual and it's still not clear to me when you have to click on left line button or when you have to click on the right side; as in when you are entering the DEP/ARR stuff (can't remember the exact item).

I was doing some take-offs and landings at Dorval, testing the limits of the plane and practicing the cold engine starts and noticed one thing, I can start and take-off at full throttle without turning any fuel on; have to investigate this further but that can't be right.

CVA0014 · Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:12 am

How does the PMDG 747 handle, is it a slow garbage scow like the default 747 or is it more like the Level-D 767?

CVA0190 · Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:58 am

I haven't done it for a while, but I know the level-D can be programmed for an almost totally automatic flight. With the copilot handling the flaps and gear, after TO you just plug in an altitude about 2500 ft above the destination airport altitude. The plane will start down after TOD, adjust the speed and wait for you to hit the auto-land buttons. You hit like three buttons the entire flight. After I did it a few times I thought it wasn't so much fun after all, I usually don't use the FMC to descend and land, just some autopilot to take it in and land myself. I also found an add-on somewhere to make it easier to open the damned cargo door.

CVA1409 · Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:37 pm

CVA0014 wrote:

.... I have everything under control, pretty much alone up there on vatsim and then I realize there's no GPS.

So I estimated a heading, set AP for FL330 and 200something knots and started flipping through the manual. I still haven't figured enough of the FMC, I'll probably look for a Youtube tutorial, but I did get the airports to show up in the lower display to home in on Tampa. I was checking on the CVA livemap to make sure I was going where I thought I was going.....

I hate to say it, but this is a perfect example of why it is important to learn to navigate using radio navaids, maps etc... What happens if your GPS/FMC craps out mid flight?

A good job there was no ATC online (I think this is hinted at) - flying direct while having filed another flight plan is just not acceptable! THink from the ATC persepctive - you have a filed route, and that is what is being expected to fly. If you suddenly depart from that with no warning, all sorts of problems ensue.

Similarly, asking for "Vectors Direct" is not appropriate, as this puts an inordinate workload on the controller - working out routings, vectors etc... The controller's job is to maintain seperation, not navigate.

In this case the controller would most likely see an equipment code which indicates full FMC, and so in issuing instructions would be using VOR/NDB/Intersections (Turn left direct BULGE etc....) - the CVA map does not provide this detail. In real life, you would not be IFR without nav equipment!

My recommendations, apart from learning to use the FMC, is to practice and learn NavAid navigation. Have the chrats in the cockpit - nto only is it an invauable backup, but gives you something to read enroute. US charts are all available online for free, so there is no excuse, or for pennies on EBay.

And on top of that - doing a cross country using only VORs is quite fun, and removes a lot of the cruise boredom from a flight.

Apologies for what neded up as a rant, but the excessive use of GPS is IMO a real navigational issue - both in the real world, and on VATSIM. Learn to walk before you try to run....

Rob Vanderkam · Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:38 pm

True enough, Barry, but I have been glad at times that the a/c "flies itself" on occasion when I just am too distracted by other things. It means when I can, I fly manually, and when I can't, I don't have to - I just have to keep an eye on things!

CVA0014 · Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:09 pm

Like I said, I was alone up there; no planes or ATC. If someone would have showed up I would have discoed. I always have FSinn radar and ServInfo running so I see what goes on around me.

I do plan on learning radio nav, one day. Right now I want to learn how the FMC works, I do this for fun first. I've been doing a lot of training getting a grip on flying the 767 manually, now I'm into doing complete shutdowns at cruise and relighting. I have no desire to use autoland, that goes beyond my reasons for using FS-X. When I do want to have my hands full I use a helicopter.

If really you want to get technical, real pilots did not fly with radio either, they used visual. Why not fly only props too? Controlling throttle, prop pitch and mixture is much more challenging that using a jet, even more so on mult-prop planes.

It's all a matter of what era of flight interests you. I prefer to live in the present and today FMC are the new nav aids. I still will one day get into radio nav, but it's not at the top of my to-do list. I'll probably get around to it the day right before I enable failures.

Rob Vanderkam · Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:38 pm

I think we've all learned how to do things at our own pace and based on our particular areas of interest. But I always thought I was obligated to fly airways and waypoints. How else can ATC get me from point A to point B without crossing paths and vectors of a/c that do? I think I'll check this out in VATSIM forums. It's an interesting issue.

Edit: Here is something. It says it is a regional thing. UK doesn't allow Direct FPs but others may. There's no global rule apparently.

http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtop....ypoints

CVA7769 · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:29 am

Rob Vanderkam wrote:

I think we've all learned how to do things at our own pace and based on our particular areas of interest. But I always thought I was obligated to fly airways and waypoints. How else can ATC get me from point A to point B without crossing paths and vectors of a/c that do? I think I'll check this out in VATSIM forums. It's an interesting issue.

Edit: Here is something. It says it is a regional thing. UK doesn't allow Direct FPs but others may. There's no global rule apparently.

http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtop....ypoints

Bah - they are all backwards over there....they drive on the left side of the road don't ya know?

Yes - North American flight rules differ slightly from over in the UK and I think also a few other things (i.e. - altitude separation, etc). I'm no expert but I seem to remember reading about it somewhere...

Cheers!

CVA1409 · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:43 pm

CVA0014 wrote:

....
It's all a matter of what era of flight interests you. I prefer to live in the present and today FMC are the new nav aids. I still will one day get into radio nav, but it's not at the top of my to-do list.

.....

Which I appreciate completely!

The point I am trying to make, is with the current ATC system - depending on your equipment code - radio navaids are used today. This IS the current nav system!

They are one of the inputs into the FMC that happens out of sight.....

Direct routings are not usually acceptable for a flight plan. Take CYYZ for instance - there is a specific traffic flow pattern established to seperate inbound and outboun traffic. If you file direct to almost anywhere, this will nto be accepted by ATC, and you will get a 'standard' route assigned.

These are a combination of waypoints & airroutes (V235, J140 etc...) - which in themselves are made up of navaid fixes- mostly perfectly navigable with a VOR or two and an ADF! Look in the back of the CFS for the standard routings out of CYYZ - very few are DCT (especially Buffalo, Waterloo and London!)

RNAV is coming - some approaches are RNAV (although they tend not to be used online, as no one can fly them properly), but general routings are good old VOR/NDB.

Also - in my opinion, you should fully understand these Navaids and how they work and interact, before diving into the world of the FMC. That way, you can see when the FMC is trying to make you fly something other than cleared (which happens ALL the time - especially with 'cleared direct' to a fix, where the FMC invariably tries to intercept the original planned route).

What is the difference between an inbound and outbound radial? When issued a hold at YSO, on the 090 radial, what is your inbound course?

One of the most annoying things from an ATC perspective, apart from being ignored, and total lack of aircraft control, is the "Sorry, my FMC turned that way" excuse, that happens all too often!

In short - I encourage you to learn the basics, the theory behind what the computer is doing, then you can fully utilise the processing power of the FMC to lighten your workload.

CVA0014 · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:11 pm

I was thinking that a dual-network system would solve a lot of these issues; one network for advanced (voice only) and one for rookies (text or voice). At least that way people know exactly what to expect from pilots and ATC, but experience has shown me otherwise.

I race online with iRacing; it's a pay-to-play service and they have levels (rookie, class D, C, B, A and Pro). You can race down from your class but you can't race above. I'm class A and often race in the rookie series and guess what? Higher class drivers that race in the rookie races still complain about the bad driving.

CVA0014 · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:20 pm

CVA1409 wrote:

...

Direct routings are not usually acceptable for a flight plan.

...

I agree, I use direct on low-level flights, multis, training exercises or special circumstances (like when I realized I had no GPS) and even then it's rare, only happened once so far.

I definitely prefer to follow a route and have everything filled up properly as best I can. But that's where I run into problems; I don't always do things right and a few ATC take things too seriously.

Shoot, I had one pilot the other day that was telling everyone a runway at Dorval was closed. He might have been ATC but he was logged on as pilot and flying out of Montreal so to my eyes he's the same as everyone else. Every time someone would post intentions of using that runway he'd insist it was closed (no atc were on at the time) and in the end pilots were intimidated into doing what he ordered.

After a while it snowballed and other pilots were giving the same order to other pilots even after that first guy left. I asked one of them why he said that runway was closed and his reply "because so-and-so said so".

CVA1409 · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:49 pm

Couple of mixed up points here:

1) IMO, voice or no voice, both are acceptable on the network.

yes, voice is more realistic, but I can control perfectly well using text - and will never (and am not allowed to) refuse service based on text.

2) VATSIM is a learning environment. Most pilots are beginners. Part of the pleasure of controlling for me is not so much the expert pilots, but bringing along a new pilot and teaching them the correct way to do things.

Now, this does not mean bending rules - in fact, you need to be 100% proper protocol when teaching - but I usually adopt a technique of using the main freq (that everyone can hear/see) for the 'by the book' transmissions, and a chat window open where the instructor side of me talks "Now I want you to say this...."

Just as in the real world ATC can and will work with students - but the rules cannot be broken or chaos will ensue.

3) As I said above, ATC had a rule set that they have to abide by. Remember this is a simulation for ATC as well - and learning and abiding by the rules is a big part.

if you file/do something wrong, ATC will ask you what you are doing, and issue appropriate instructions. Usually there is a way to accomodate almost anyone, apart from someone who wants to blatantly do it their own way regardless of what everyone else is doing - and these people are best flying offline. Remember - only accept a clearance that you can comply with - dont' be afriad to say 'unable'. But bear in mind that you MUST comply with an ATC instruction - unless the safety of your flight is at risk, and even then you must tell ATC what you are doing.

Best thing abotu VATSIM, is if you do commit a transgression, all you get is a hopefully nice note from ATC pointing out the error, and telling you how to correct it. Not the "take down this number" that you get in the real-world!

If (when) you see me online - hop on and get your feet wet with voice. It is far easier than you think, and ATC really do not bite. In fact, if you get poor service, or bad treatment from anyone in CZYZ FIR, please let me know (with logs if possible) and we can correct the issue.

CVA1409 · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:52 pm

Oh yes - as for an airport without ATC.

Just like in the real-world, that revert to an uncontrolled field.

The selection of runway is at the pilot's discretion. Make your calls on Unicom in the usual way (enetering zone, joining circuit, downwind, final, vacating runway) and you are obeying everything you need to. Other pilots have no right to instruct you what to do - all they need do is advise what they are doing, and you are both responsible to keep out of each other's way.

Add-on class 4 aircraft

Who is online